Nanopolitan noted Sean Carrol’s rebuttal of Intelligent design and feels that the astrology camp India is similar in charachter to the Intelligent design camp in the US. neelakantan doubts if we understand enough to debunk astrology. This is a reply.
First,to me, any endevour is a “science” only if it seeks to understand the world around us and is able to make predictions which are testable anywhere by anybody.Needless to say, these predictions must work.
Historically, mankind feared many forces of nature. It would have been easy to find a correlation between floods and the position of ,say, the Sun/Moon. It is fair to expect that in the same vein, planets were roped in and were assumed to affect all aspects of human life. As a matter of fact, Newton himself was impressed by Astrology. But today, we know MUCH more. We can fly a satellite into a comet, send satellites to observe the sun, put telescopes in orbit, fly to space and come back. These are no mean things. They are possible purely because of the precision that we are able to achieve in our predictions. They don’t use “Priyanka Gandhi will be PM by 2007″ – type predictions, the ones a Astrologer seem to love. We know FOR SURE that there is NO truth is all this business of Rahu, Kethu etc affecting our lives. If you don’t agree, show me a prediction from Astrology that works 100% fine ,all the time. I can give you numerous such examples from today’s Science.
Any astrology column, is often an exercise in tactful writing which will make almost anything seem possible. They put their good composition writing skills to work… Don’t believe me?.. look at this. This is a daily page..I have saved a copy of the Aug 6th page here
Our beloved Astrologer says:
- “Get a clearance from superiors before embarking on a new project” – If you needed an astrologer to tell u this .. u r in serious trouble – consider resigning your job.
- “Devote time and attention to those who can fully appreciate your optimism” – Did I tell him that I am optimistic?..I am sure even the writer does not understand what he is trying to say.
- “Influential people may get some new offer regarding business. Do not jump for the offer without due consideration.” — Brilliant..as general as it can get. New management guru in the making… Arindham Choudhry, u have competition!
- “Travels may not yield the expected results. Progress can be seen. Exercise more caution on your health front.” – What on earth is “Progress can be seen” doing there? vague-o-vague
I have chosen only a few of the ‘predictions’ to comment here. Even if some of the others sound more precise, the point is that there is little there that any concerned friend/relative won’t tell you. Revered Mr. Astrologer is useless. *may*, *likely*,*most probably* seem to be his favourite (only?) adjectives.
Now if you think I am guy a who thinks science solves everything..sorry,that is not my point. We might/might not find a theory which would explain everything. But we know for sure certain things just don’t happen. Put a ball in a pit and chant your heart out.. the ball won’t rise on its own. This is a centuries-old observation. There is no known exception.If you think everything is maya.. then forget about the world..go to the forest and spend ur time. No objections! Why bother about teaching Astrology in universities? Leave the rest alone.(Note: I am not rubbishing philosophy..my point is that this whole money-minded astrology business is in conflict with such philosophical thoughts too)
I for one think that these ‘expert’ astrologers perfectly know that they are cheating people and they adapt with times to ensure their hold remains(heard of “computerised horoscope matching for marriages”??.. what a combination!). In India, this debate sprang into focus sometime back with the Astrologers demanding induction of their ’science’ into the universities. See this article by Prof. Jayaram of IMSc, written in this context. He is a theoretical physicist who writes often in Hindu/Frontline on Science-Society issues. He was also a very prominent voice against India’s Pokhran nuke tests. He notes that even personalities like our current Finance Minister Mr.Chidambaram think that astrology should be developed with a “modern scientific basis”. No marks for guessing what our “nationalist” NDA thought about vedic astrology. But for some quick action by eminent scientists, astrology would have made into our universities. Come on pple.. there are enough other things in Indian History that we can truly be proud of. I find it utterly surprising that even the well educated fall prey to such pass-times. I don’t know as to why this is the case….is this a failure of the scientific community to reach out to more people? ..or is it an incurable plague in our society?
What we call science, is an evolving subject. Yes, today, the basics are all clear or so we think. But a few hundred years ago, the earth was flat was “science”. Thalidomide was science. Yesterday, big dams were science. Daily predictions in newspapers is not astrology, neither is it science. Thats PR. Like Ayurveda, astrologys ruin lies not in the ancient texts which nobody cares to read (most of us, cannot even read it), but in the fake practioners who claim to know it all. Just as, we rational people, take science with a pinch of salt, we should, as rational people, take the debunking of astrology too with a pinch of salt. We dont know what we dont know.
You hit the nail on its head.. science “evolves”..or rather, evolution with advent of new observations is at the heart of any ’scientific’ endevour. Astrology, as I see it, still uses age old observational data, which we know is WRONG..all our festivals predicted by ancient texts are grossly off the astronomical events that they signify. How do you know this???.. use ur naked eye(the very same instrument used by our ‘forefathers’). There are differences which are easy to spot.
As long as someone simply refuses accept new data..sorry, she/he is not doing ’science’.
And if u think Newspaper predictors aren’t the right proto-types, point me to a source which is “true vedic astrology” and has made predictions which have worked all the time.
I think it is axiomatic that you don’t teach something which has never( I am talking of time scales of the order of centuries) had any experiental evidence. Taxpayer’s money is not meant for fantasies
Yes, tax payer’s money is not meant for fantasies. But fantasies also include western psychology, education ( i.e., how to teach – BEd. and the like ), english literature etc.
Also tell me one pure mathematics discovery made by any of these DAE institutes that has helped the man in the street. So utility-wise, why waste the tax payer’s money on these?
If you say that psychology etc. can be taught but not as science so can be astrology. Let us say, M.A. in astrology. If you say that it induces false beliefs in people so are theological studies.
Anyway, the assumption that science ultimately has made life better itself is worth questioning.
On a slightly unrelated note, western astrology is somewhat getting popular among the younger generation, through social manipulation, through “cool” channels. For instance the telecast of cricket matches often state western astrological predictions ( this guy is a Libran, so… ); and I see people identifying each other as Piscean etc. These phenomena trickle into people’s minds and many start following western astrology.
Aswin, thanks for posting strong arguments against astrology. Testability and its stronger cousin falsifiability are the keystones of a scientific theory; from this point of view, astrology has been a massive failure — again, again, and over again — in its claim to be a science.
As Dilip said in his comments to my post, it is absolutely essential that astrology should be debunked every opportunity we get. It is a pity that academics didn’t do a good enough debunking when the jyotir stupidity — in the name of ‘vigyan’ — was thrust into universities as an academic discipline.
Neelakantan says that we — rational people — take science with a pinch of salt. In fact, scientists themselves take science with a pinch of salt; see the really wonderful Feynman piece in his ‘Meaning of it all’ about the primacy of ‘doubt’ in all scientific endeavour. Doubt’s primacy is a corollary of Popper’s ideas on what constitutes a scientific theory.
However, the analogy with debunking of astrology does not hold! In science, once something is falsified, there is no doubt in a scientist’s mind; either the theory is dumped (tons of examples), or if something in the theory can be salvaged, it is modified. I see neither of it being done in the field of astrology.
Abhi,
I totally agree with you.
and frog,
I have a reply here
Read my reply here
Hey there,
You certainly do have strong points, and certainly you do have a good skills in expressing ideas. I have wasted a lot of grey matter in understanding what This whole astrology stuff. To add to my misery, my father believed strongly in Astrology. Now don’t imagine my father to be one of those old world men, he was a MSC in maths, a Lawyer and a secular citizen. Often this debate takes a wrong turn mixing with Mythology, religion and ignorance of the subject. I will agree with you, that the astrology which we read in the newspapers is a whole bunch of crap. These are generalised predictions meant for a wide range of people who belong to a particular Zodiac sign if you want to believe. ANd i will also agree there are many people out there who just guess artistically for financial gains. But then pal, if you meet a Dummy Doc, who knows trash about medicine, who prescribes wrong medicines, will you stop believing in Medicine. What astrology lacks is a proper scientific probing, if not a scientific approach. And quite frankly, we no nuts about the universe to tag astrology as bullshit. If cosmologists are suggesting that the Gravity of the earth leaks from the 12th dimension to the 1st, then there may be many such phenomena beyond our perception. I would love astrology, to be under that microscope and a part of scientific Research
All the talk about extra dimensions is speculation, as of now. NO ONE will insist that they exist until they are actually detected. Experimental verification/falsification is central to any physical theory. This is not the case with Astrology.
And “We know nuts about the universe” is perfectly true if u mean to say that there are infinite things to be understood. But do we enough to debunk astrology ?? .. “YES.. A BIIIIG YES”. I have already said as to why I think so.. in this post and in another post here